hhkb said:My IPD is 69mm so right at the edge of the quest2 comfort zone [which is really optimized for ~63mm].
Using the dual band 5Ghz antenna on my PC worked perfectly fine - I could pick a dedicated 40Mhz band and max everything. It doesn't make sense why this would be worse than a dedicated router, unless you don't know what you're doing to set it up, or the onboard Wifi is bad. I haven't actually tried it now in 6 months so maybe things are better, especially on the Quest2. It was still a good experience [I played Alyx mostly this way], but I found the latency noticeable. I don't think any high level beat saber player would use Virtual Desktop, for example - and I'd say that is the golden bar for a low latency experience. It's what Carmack uses to latency check the Oculus headsets himself.Click to expand...
That's what I am saying. I think there was something wrong with your Virtual desktop settings. You might notice latency on the higher levels of Beat Saber with Virtual desktop, but you shouldn't notice any lag on games like Half Life Alyx. And even if you do notice it on Beat Saber, it shouldn't be terrible, you should still be able to complete levels even on Expert plus. Had you the VR bitrate set too high? Just you said you maxed everything. Anything over 100Mbs and you are going really increase your Latency by a lot.
Also, I can't argue with you about Pcie card vs Dedicated router, If I hadn't tried both, I wouldn't believe it either. It's what the Virtual desktop developer recommends and I am sure he has his reasons. He is a very active on Reddit and has his own discord channel. He can probably explain the in and outs of why he recommends a dedicated router.
This. As a long time VR player, this is where beginners and even those that have played a bit of VR often mess up and spiral into a nice 2+ hour bout of general misery. When you start to feel ill, stop completely, get up and leave the PC - do something else for a while till it completely passes. I've found that over time, you really do build up and develop VR legs so that you can avoid getting sick... but trying to "power through it" is a sure fire way of just becoming miserable for a few hours.reaper12 said:
Lastly, getting sick in VR. You have to stop playing once you start feeling sick, and not just stop playing the game, you have to take off the headset and go do something else until the nausea has completely passed away. Long time users are the worst at this. They think they should have their VR legs and they try to keep fighting through the sick feeling. It's the wrong thing to do. The second you start to feel nauseous, take off the headset.Click to expand...
That cost me a Rift S sale. I loaned it to a co-worker for 2 weeks [he loves Assetto Corsa]. The first week he didn't actually turn on the VR mode, and it looked like a giant monitor to him. Telling him which options to turn on finally got him into the seat of the car. For the second week, he tried to power through motion sickness/nausea. Which led him to dislike VR.Supercharged_Z06 said:This. As a long time VR player, this is where beginners and even those that have played a bit of VR often mess up and spiral into a nice 2+ hour bout of general misery. When you start to feel ill, stop completely, get up and leave the PC - do something else for a while till it completely passes. I've found that over time, you really do build up and develop VR legs so that you can avoid getting sick... but trying to "power through it" is a sure fire way of just becoming miserable for a few hours.Click to expand...
Headtracking, as in when I move my physical head/body.MaZa said:Wait, is the problem when you move your character with the controller and your hands that get stuttery, or is is the headtracking meaning when you are looking around yourself?Click to expand...
Using a RTX 3070 Founders. And yes, we have another 5GHz band for anything else. Both were set to channel 36 and 80MHz bandwidth. There's no congestion on 5GHz in my area, I'm the only one on channel 36 when checking WiFi Analyzer / inSSIDer. I'm considering setting them up to 40MHz each then move them to separate channels, but it doesn't look like the AmpliFi software allows me to configure them individually like that.reaper12 said:It shouldn't be like that though. There shouldn't be any jitter. What's your GPU? What game did you try? When you say you have a dedicated 5Ghz SSID for the quest 2, do you another 5Ghz SSID for other devices?Click to expand...
SPARTAN VI said:Headtracking, as in when I move my physical head/body.
Using a RTX 3070 Founders. And yes, we have another 5GHz band for anything else. Both were set to channel 36 and 80MHz bandwidth. There's no congestion on 5GHz in my area, I'm the only one on channel 36 when checking WiFi Analyzer / inSSIDer. I'm considering setting them up to 40MHz each then move them to separate channels, but it doesn't look like the AmpliFi software allows me to configure them individually like that.Click to expand...
Sorry for late reply.
Does it make any difference if you play Steam Games or Oculus Games?
In the Virtual Streamer have you made sure "Automatically Adjust Bitrate" is unticked?
In Virtual desktop try the following settings. With your GPU there should work well for you.
Use H.264 codec.
VR Bitrate - 90Mbs.
VR Graphic High
Frame rate - 90fps.
Sliced encoding - on.
You can adjust these later if you want. It's just for the troubleshooting.
If you are still getting Jitter after this, then it's your Network setup.
What I would do is kick every 5Ghz device off the network, remove the other 5ghz SSIDs and just have one band and one SSID and only connect your Quest 2 to it. Then check your games.
NP, thanks for trying to help but I'm thinking it's going to come down to Oculus themselves releasing something like this that's turn key and officially supported. Yep, got jitter with both Oculus games [First Contact] and SteamVR games [VR Home and Phasmophobia]. Tried the above settings too. When I was first attempting this, I originally had a single 5GHz band. I opened up a dedicated 5GHz band later to see if that would help. I'm just going to refund Virtual Desktop because I'm satisfied with how the Oculus Link cable is working, although it would be neat to have this working in the bedroom too [where the 2nd AmpliFi router is].reaper12 said:Sorry for late reply.
Does it make any difference if you play Steam Games or Oculus Games?
In the Virtual Streamer have you made sure "Automatically Adjust Bitrate" is unticked?
In Virtual desktop try the following settings. With your GPU there should work well for you.
Use H.264 codec.
VR Bitrate - 90Mbs.
VR Graphic High
Frame rate - 90fps.
Sliced encoding - on.
You can adjust these later if you want. It's just for the troubleshooting.
If you are still getting Jitter after this, then it's your Network setup.
What I would do is kick every 5Ghz device off the network, remove the other 5ghz SSIDs and just have one band and one SSID and only connect your Quest 2 to it. Then check your games.Click to expand...
For headphones by far my favorite is the Skullcandy Crusher EVO as i can adjust the bass when i want that visceral impact that complements the immersion levels of VR perfectly.SPARTAN VI said:For those who do, what do you use for earsbuds/headphones? Ideally something that's purpose built for VR so there's no wire management. The on-strap speakers are okay, especially if I throw a hoodie on over my head, but sometimes I want to play at night without making a bunch of noise.
I saw Logitech has a G333 VR-ready earbud set, but $50 is quite pricey for what's essentially a set of earbuds with a shortened cable. Also found these cheapo $14 buds, but IME you get what you pay for too.Click to expand...
Feeling the rattle of shots in Roborecall for exame is epic
Now i just need to order my bHaptics to be complete.
1. Turning head IRL is smoothTwistedMetalGear said:This might be more of a general VR question, but how is it that turning my head IRL translates to extremely smooth turning in game whereas turning with the thumbstick reveals a lower frame rate? I mean I'm sure the frame rate is the same regardless of turning method used, but how is it that physically turning my head looks so smooth as compared to the thumbstick?Click to expand...
2. Turning head in VR is smooth
But if you use your thumbstick with smooth-turn, it's equivalent to using a thumbstick to control a dizzy rotating IRL platform under your feet [Smooth-turning the environment without turning your head]. That's why thumbstick smooth-turn is disabled by default in most games.
Pretend you built a spinning platform under your feet IRL. Controlled by a thumbstick to control the rotation of the platform under you. You WILL get dizzy if you are not used to it! That's what smooth-turn feels like to many people including me.
Similar dizzy problem in VR, except without the G-forces of spinning [but you still get dizzy in VR because of vertigo sync issue].
So that's why they intentionally by default "lower the frame rate" of turning in VR in instant-rotation steps to solve the dizzy-problem. Nausea-wise, this is WHY it is often better to use real headturning in VR instead of thumbstick-controlled head turning. However, some people learn to get used to this [getting their "VR legs"].
Personally, I am now tolerant of smooth locomotion, but I get instantly dizzy with smooth turns.
So I turn on smooth locomotion, but I always keep low frame rate snap-turn [VR games do this as intentional dizzy-proofing]
Everybody is different when it comes to VR. Also, some people can't tolerate ANY kind of thumbstick turning, Instead, such people can set up a roomscale and simply use their head/body to turn instead, never using thumbstick to turn. Keeping perfect 1:1 vertigo sync to stay comfortable.
hhkb said:It doesn't make sense why this would be worse than a dedicated routerClick to expand...
A dedicated router is good. WiFi drivers running in the background of a computer, can be bogged down by a busy system [busy CPU]. Plus the WiFi chips themselves can have less speedy processing.
Gigabit ethernet ports usually have lower Windows driver processing overhead requirements than WiFi ports. With your CPU cycles busy on the game, means fewer cycles for flawless network processing. Also, even without the CPU, the WiFi processing on motherboards are cheaper than the WiFi processing in high-end gaming routers.
Modern WiFi packets use extremely advanced processor-intensive error correction called low density parity checks [LDPC] -- not to mention WPA2/WPA3 encryption -- the combination of which used to require a supercomputer just thirty years ago!! The WiFi LDPC decoding latency adds multiple milliseconds on many cheap low-power WiFi chips!
There's many research papers about using GPUs to accelerate LDPC decoding. Imagine how much work a WiFi chip is doing!! So, outsource WiFi processing to an expensive gaming router, one of those powerful multigigahertz multicore MIMO 8-antenna gaming routers with what essentially has an almost-overclocked WiFi-processing chipset [doing nothing, no Netflix, no downloads, just only one connection to VR headset], and your wireless PC VR streaming experience skyrockets in reliability/consistency/quality.
For example, decoding one 11ac or 11ax WiFi packet requires many orders more computing power [for just that packet alone] than the Apollo 11 Moon Mission combined [several days from from launch to landing]!
Now it's just a bunch of few square millimeters on a WiFi chip. But that processing takes a finite amount of time. Cheaper and lower-power WiFi chips might take 5ms longer than the best high-end higher-clockrate dedicated WiFi chips built into a dedicated gaming router. Motherboard doesn't have $300 worth of WiFi processing power.
You're simply outsourcing 100% of your WiFi-related processing to be 100% independent of your computer load. With the powerful gigahertz-scale multicore processors of a dedicated router, you can have less latency AND less network jitter AND fewer VR stutters. I've been able to play with a decicated WiFi router with zero stutter [not a single frame drop] for relatively long periods of gameplay, provided the router was in the same room and not shared by other bandwidth and no interference was occuring. I was able to get below 30ms lag with a $300 gaming router not being used for anything else.
Also, the MU-MIMO 8-antennas [beam forming] are like a basic phased array that steers its beam in real time to your exact location of your Quest 2 headset in the room, so as you turn, move, gyrate, swing, jump, the stutters don't occur like it might otherwise occur with those latency-impacting bitrate change [switching between 432 Mbps and 864 Mbps has a tiny latency pause that can create stutter] or those random signal fluctuations as your headset gets blocked by your head as you turn away from router, etc. You want it perpetually 864 Mbps, and perpetually using less than 10% of the bandwidth, for zero-millisecond WiFi jitter too. And no contention with any devices [nobody using Netflix or Internet on the same WiFi router].
It's brute overkill, but extra millisecond of WiFi driver processing latency can create extra lag or extra stutter in some cases.
That said, good onboard WiFi can do just fine -- it's not too shabby. Some are very good indeed. But what this means is what you deem "good" may still be 5ms laggier than a dedicated WiFi router, even if there's zero stutter. LDPC/encryption decoding latency being outsourced, yadda, yadda.
Some people find it worthwhile to spend extra money to save 10ms-20ms WiFi latency through a combination of dedicated router + GPU upgrade + bitrate adjustment. Lag savings can all add up quite a bit. 10ms less lag can mean the difference between being tired after 1 hour, versus no nausea after 3 hours in playing Half Life: Alyx.
Your VR nausea onset is slower if one can afford to invest more money in getting the lowest possible wireless latency.
Just putting priorities in perspective. If you're a GTX 1060 user who just barely can afford a Quest 2 64GB, then onboard WiFi is fine. But for other people who happily paid scalper-overpriced RTX 3090 for a pimped-out Quest 2 256GB with the comfort strap, why settle for onboard motherboard WiFi? Those other people are literally metaphorically putting used $50 tires on their Ferrari. Milliseconds matters for nausea here. Pamper it properly with dedicated supercomputer WiFi separate of your main Internet router.
What's being done inside an 11ac/ax WiFi modem chip is nothing short of jawdropping.
//developer.oculus.com/documentation/native/android/mobile-timewarp-overview/ If your real FPS is really low like you are mentioning... Oculus does frame smoothing based on the head tracking data. They make one or more fake frames per real frame. Its most effective when you are just making rotational changes from a fixed perspective. Panning, strafing, walking around etc require perspective and geometric changes that are less easy to process. ASW does apply to those but not as well.TwistedMetalGear said:Sorry I don't think I was clear. Let me rephrase. Suppose I'm running a graphically intense game [FS2020 for example]. Actual frame rate is in the 30s. When I rotate my head IRL, my surroundings "flow" into the headset super smooth. I don't perceive any skipping of frames despite the game running at 30 fps. It feels like a full 90 fps when I rotate my head. On the other hand, all other motion that isn't a head rotation [panning, strafing, walking around, thumbstick rotations, objects passing in front of my face, etc...] reveal the true 30 fps.Click to expand...
TwistedMetalGear said:Sorry I don't think I was clear. Let me rephrase. Suppose I'm running a graphically intense game [FS2020 for example]. Actual frame rate is in the 30s. When I rotate my head IRL, my surroundings "flow" into the headset super smooth. I don't perceive any skipping of frames despite the game running at 30 fps. It feels like a full 90 fps when I rotate my head. On the other hand, all other motion that isn't a head rotation [panning, strafing, walking around, thumbstick rotations, objects passing in front of my face, etc...] reveal the true 30 fps.Click to expand...
MaZa said:I do not know the technical details, but somehow the headtracking is separated from the game framerate. Even if your game is a stuttery mess the headtracking is still smooth. No idea how it is done but this is how it is designed to work to avoid player projectile vomiting.Click to expand...
Oh! That.
VR games are often capable of multiple frame rates concurrently; high frame rates for head turning versus low frame rates for the 3D objects themselves.
This is because of warping or reprojection technology [some of us call it "Frame Rate Amplification Technologies"; google that] such as Oculus ASW 2.0, or the HTC/Valve equivalents. It's a low-lag descendant of old-fashioned interpolation.
This keeps head turning frame rate higher than the underlying frame rate, reducing nausea.
Eventually, over the long term, frame rate amplification technologies will be used in more gaming/VR software to decouple effective frame rate from underlying full GPU-render frame rate, in a perceptually lossless manner. I also want to see more of this VR technology to arrive on desktop gaming, especially 100fps framerate-amplified to 1000fps for future 1000Hz monitors -- and apply to everything [physics, objects, turning, etc] so that the underlying real frame rate is not revealed. Perhaps a future DLSS 3.0 or DLSS 4.0 or the AMD equivalent.
Metaphorically, the decoupling of multiple frame rates is hierarchically sort of like how MPEG2 / H.264 works -- much how Netflix is only 1 frame per second of a full non-interpolated non-estimated frames [P-Frames], with the rest of 23 frames per second interpolated [I-Frames, B-Frames]. But we can't tell apart the real frames from the estimated/predicted frames [some say "fake frames"]. It is a hallmark of modern video compression, and some of the motion vector technology is slowly being added to 3D rendering -- you're witnessing this with head turning in VR. Basically head turning data feeds the warping/reprojection engine to allow creating new frames that aren't full 3D renders.
This is not your grandpa's Motionflow TV interpolation; it's some pretty neat stuff going on in VR.